Talk:Instancing - Bookmarks

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I've restored the {{TOClimit}} template call with a level limit of 2 (as you had tried originally). I'm not sure if that's really what you meant, since that only gives the top level headings (which are actually level 2 headings). TOClimit without a parameter gives you the level 2 and level 3 headings: Template:TOClimit/doc. -- Mac Fife 08:03, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

75th Trombone's thoughts

"In this proposal, a player can reach a friend's Age by … [joining] a group where the friend is leader. Use the Group Journey bookmark with any book or Bahro stone that links to the friend's collected and unlocked Age."

How do you alert users if they attempt to put your bookmark on a Book to an Age that you don't have? If you don't show your bookmarks on such books but do show them on others, how do players know why your bookmark doesn't always appear?

I don't think it's very intuitive to put a piece of cloth with my name on a Book to change where that Book goes; it's much, much more clear what's going on when you actually use my Relto bookshelf.

The main problem I see your proposal solving is letting groups regather after getting separated from the leader. I think the simplest, best, and most understandable way of doing this is providing them an easy way to get back to my Relto and use my unlocked books again.

Response to 75th's thoughts

Replying some 2 years later... since Open Source is finally upon us, I felt like fleshing out my thoughts a bit.

It's clear that I've failed to convey some parts of my concept adequately, that leads to some of the blanks being filled in with things I didn't mean or say... so I will do my best to clarify.

How do you alert users if they attempt to put your bookmark on a Book to an Age that you don't have? If you don't show your bookmarks on such books but do show them on others, how do players know why your bookmark doesn't always appear?

A person cannot move another person's bookmark from one book to another. If your question was instead, "How do you alert a user when he or she attempts to use his or her (group) bookmark on a book that the group leader does not possess?", I have an answer for that. The way I had intended this to work was that the group bookmark would not be selectable. It would be present (because if you are in a group, group bookmarks appear, and if you are not in a group, they don't) but it would be disabled in some visual, meaningful way (maybe a symbol on it turns red?). If a user clicks on the disabled bookmark, a pop-up could provide an explanation that the group leader does not possess the book. (I feel there has to be some compromise between an interface that is unobtrusive and doesn't break the 4th wall, and being able to explain to users why they cannot do a thing. Uru is full of enough undocumented user interfaces already. Basic gameplay should not be a puzzle unto itself.)

I don't think it's very intuitive to put a piece of cloth with my name on a Book to change where that Book goes; it's much, much more clear what's going on when you actually use my Relto bookshelf.

The main problem I see your proposal solving is letting groups regather after getting separated from the leader.

Cloths wouldn't have names on them, nor do they really change "where a book goes"; laying a bookmark across a Myst book does not cause it to link to Tomahna instead. There would be a "Solo journey" bookmark and a "Group journey" bookmark, not even represented with words but by symbols (single hand vs two hands), and by laying one across a book, it changes the instancing rules. Though I didn't say it before, I think the mechanics of these bookmarks would need to be introduced to a new player in some story-integral way to address the "is this intuitive?" issue.

I agree that what happens when you use your Relto bookshelf is nice and clear, but unfortunately, Relto's behavior cannot be applied as a model throughout the game, and I would object to being required to travel to Relto to be part of a group (and I'm sure I would not be alone in my protest).

My proposal is intended to solve more than mere group mechanics. I'm trying to lay down not just a consistent approach to instancing, but also a logical one that separates Yeesha magic from D'ni technology. This is a huge sticking point for me.

Why am I able to reach my private instances from Nexus? Why am I able to share invites so that other people can reach my instances through the Nexus? These are gameplay mechanics that Cyan added to avoid the "must always go to Relto to be in a group" problem, but it breaks the rules. The books in Relto can use Yeesha magic, that they even appear there at all is Yeesha magic, but Nexus is technology; it shouldn't have multiple Teledahn books leading to different instances.

The idea that the user has 2 magic bookmarks, given to him or her by Yeesha, solves this issue universally throughout the game. Any book you lay a bookmark over would be touched by Yeesha's magic; suddenly, it can lead you to a private version all your own, or shared just with your friends. Remove the bookmark, and it's a normal linking book again like those in Myst and Riven, and touching it will only take you to the "real" or "prime" version of the Age.